By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
Job Search Resilience And Being Solid
By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
This interview with Stuart McCalla of Evolution was a thoughtful conversation about many different emotional subjects related to job search starting with resilience.
Roadblocks. Perseverance. Adversity. Resilience. Determination.
Jeff Altman 00:04
So my guest today is Stuart McCalla. Stuart has worked in tech and in some of the most well known companies in the country. He’s a managing partner at Evolution, a coaching culture and leadership development firm. And Stuart has taken his life lessons and professional lessons and woven them into a coaching culture he provides to clients. Stuart. Welcome. Thanks for making time today.
Stuart McCalla 00:33
Thank you, Jeff, thank you for having me.
Jeff Altman 00:36
It is my pleasure. So folks, we’re gonna be talking about a bunch of things. But I think it really is gonna start off with talking about resilience and job search. So when we think about resilience, Stuart, why is it important to people to be resilient through their search
Stuart McCalla 00:57
Well, a job search, especially in this day, and age can be a brutal thing. Most people experience job searches as not a pleasant experience.
Stuart McCalla 00:57
Exactly. Even maybe a little bit worse than that, right? It’s it can be a really intense. And more so because a job search people put their worth attached to their job. And so getting a no or rejection can be really intense for folks. And so, crafting or cultivating a sense of resilience is going to help you be more successful in a job search and be able to navigate the nuances, the weirdness, the rejections, the highs, the lows of any job search that anybody’s engaging with.
Jeff Altman 01:06
It’s up there with root canal
Jeff Altman 01:13
So some people think of resilience as having one definition. I want to make sure the audience understands your definition of resilience, How would you define it for them.
Stuart McCalla 01:53
It’s a great question. You know, resilience for me is multi layer, but it really is the idea of knowing who you are. And not being knocked around or not your sense of who yourself is not being shaped by the forces around you. And that you’re able to adapt to the situation around you still stays true to who you are. So resilience is not ‘I can overcome anything’ because anybody can overcome anything and change who they are to overcome that thing. If you’re resilient, if you are adaptable, if you are sure of who you are, then nothing’s gonna knock you off your pedestal or knock you off your balance basically. Right.
Jeff Altman 02:38
It’s so funny and, folks, if you’re listening to this in podcast form, Stuart presented that sentence, that definition, solid. Firm. There was a quality in his speech and in his manner, that he was unmovable.
Stuart McCalla 03:00
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for that. But that’s many years of dealing with, you know, job searches and clients and, you know, knowing who you are, getting to the heart of who you are in any job search. Job search is going to be almost like personal self development. You’re going to struggle. So as you can imagine, it’ll, it’s a crucible that refines you. And so seeking a job or getting a job and a job that you want. Think of it as a crucible, think of it as a passage for you to go through and enjoy it that way.
Jeff Altman 03:36
It’s so funny, because, you know, having worked in search for as many years as I did, I spoke to 1000s and 1000s of people who were basically like fish in a pond, trying to jump on whatever hook got thrown in the water for them. And that sense of certainty about who they are and what they want was non-existent. I needed a job, any job. Any job became their manner. And thus anyone meeting with them will get that sense of anxiety and desperation that so many people have as they engage in that job search?
Stuart McCalla 04:22
Yeah. And, you know, I think it’s not very useful to adopt that stance of desperation, anxiety. And I want to just say an offer, I know that people have are desperate and anxious because the world you know, if you’re having a job and you’ve got like two kids, and you know, you may be the only breadwinner or maybe one of two and you need that income, it can feel very defeating and anxiety producing. So what can you do under stress and how do you learn to deal with stress?
Jeff Altman 04:57
You anticipated my next question. That’s perfect. We had to do a segue at some point.
Stuart McCalla 05:05
Great Minds, right?
Jeff Altman 05:07
Or something like that. So how do you start developing that sense of resilience?
Stuart McCalla 05:13
Yeah. So I’ll tell you what I did iand everyone is going to be a little bit different. But the first thing I did was I made sure to collect people around me who were mentors and guides. And you’d be surprised a lot of folks will say, ‘Well, you know, in getting a job, I don’t need a mentor.’ I’m like, actually probably do. A mentor is going to be able to tell and be a voice of reason for you. You’re going to be telling, they’re going to be able to tell you, ‘hey, maybe you shouldn’t do it this way.’ Or ‘have you thought about a different way,’ or ‘this is my experience.’ And having that information come in, that you can process, analyze, and then move on. And use is super useful. And many people really want to be mentors, you’d be surprised a lot of folks who have said to me, ‘Well, I don’t know any mentors,’ I’m like, ‘well go ask your old boss,’ if you have a good relationship with that person. Go ask somebody in your field. Do an informational interview. You might not be able to get the person that you want, but they might pass you on to somebody else that might become a become a mentor. So that’s one first, that’s the first step, I think
Jeff Altman 06:18
I’m going to add it into one thing have or hire a coach to work with you.
Stuart McCalla 06:24
Well, I mean, I’ll just say, you know, I’ve . . .
Jeff Altman 06:27
and the same issues with coaching exists with mentors. They’re very good coaches. And there are some really infantile baby coaches, talking about the dream job with wonder. You know, it’s childish advice that you get from them, because they don’t know.
Stuart McCalla 06:47
Well, I think, you know, the coaches is, we’ll go off a little bit of a tangent here. But the coaches who I think are most profound, have done their own work. So they know where they stand in the world. And so coaches, the coaches that I’ve seen, and I’m hoping I can count myself one of them. But it’s not for me to say. It’s for my clients, and for the people who interact with me that when I do my own work, I show up differently. And so the same thing with a job search. If you do your own work, if you investigate the things about yourself that people have said, sometimes you’d make do in the job, or if you have a practice by which you are journaling, and you’re reflecting on your thoughts and see the highs and lows that are happening within your life. There’s a lot of community, that can be some weird ones, so but if you if you join a community of people who are doing similar work, I mean, be careful, I think I’ll just let’s just say that, right. But if you join a community of people who are doing that work as well, too, you then develop and have that skill reflected back to you, that sort of self-exploration. You know, deep dive within yourself. And it’s not something you do every day. But as you do, a little bit, it’s it’s funny. I just got done with a weightlifting class. And I’m 51 years old, and weightlifting was not my thing for a long time. But what I loved about it was it is an incremental developmental skill. And the same thing with a job search. It’s an incremental developmental skill, and building that resilience in that system around you is incremental, and developmental,. It’s not going to happen overnight. It takes a little bit of time. So develop that time and be deliberate about it. I remember writing notes. I still look at my notes from when I was looking for jobs, and I wrote notes on everything that I happened in an interview. What did i . . . What did I learn? What did I like? What did I not like? Why did I not like about that person? What was my experience? Like, ask yourself questions after every job interview. And you’ll see over time a pattern developing and that’s what you want.
Resilience, Not Worry
Jeff Altman 08:56
Absolutely true. And, you know, for so many people, they think they’re supposed to figure out things by themselves.
Stuart McCalla 09:06
That’s right.
Jeff Altman 09:07
I’m an adult, I should know. That’s the shorthand for ‘I can do this by myself. I should be able to do this by myself.’ And I always ask the question, ‘and who told you that?’
Stuart McCalla 09:21
Not only who told you that? But why did you even think . . . You know, all the most successful people that I know have a team around them. Whether it’s a team they pay for. It’s a team that they’ve built over time through relationships. They have a team around them. When I coach my clients, and I’ve, you know, coach CEOs and senior vice presidents and executive vice presidents. The first thing I ask is, what’s the team around you as you’re embarking on this coaching journey? It’s not just me. I’m one person. That’s going to give you an insight. But do you have a naturopath? You know, a therapist Got the spiritual adviser, a yoga teacher, like, whatever it is around you, but it’s not just to one person, it’s not two people, it’s probably about six or seven. And just develop that team around you that you can go to, so that you’re not doing it by yourself. Nobody has ever accomplished anything by . . . So I’m gonna say this completely declaratively. And I could be completely wrong. But no one has accomplished anything by themselves, that has had huge impact in the world.
Jeff Altman 10:31
And there are a lot of people who operate at a lower level, and are thinking of themselves as having impact. And they do, of course.
Stuart McCalla 10:40
And they do, of course,. I mean, that’s, that’s also a thing. So many people in their job search don’t see the impact they have even on the companies that they’re going and interviewing with.
Jeff Altman 10:52
So in developing resilience around the job search, I want to connect it with that for a second. What sort of things should a person be cultivating in order to develop that resilience? That solid quality? We’ve spoken about having a team of advisers around someone as an important quality, and developing a degree of, I don’t wanna say personal certainty, although that could be a shorthand some people could use for it. But, you know, being solid. I’m going to go back to that word from earlier.And how do you start developing that solidness as an individual, male or female? How does that work? Where do you start?
Stuart McCalla 11:41
And I love that you said that it’s not gendered. It’s not it’s male, female, it’s young, it’s old. There’s people in their 60s who are developing this sort of solidity. And the way that I think about it is depth. Have you looked at the deepest aspect of yourself, and swam with the sharks in your psyche? Right, so have you noticed, oh, wow, there are these family histories that I hold, or there’s trauma that has been passed on intergenerationally. Or there’s, you know, things that I do that I’m unaware of that have negative impact on my family, or the people around me. But that solidity comes from examining who you are. And I’m biased as a coach, because that’s what I do with my clients. And I do with myself, like, I don’t do anything with clients, with my clients when I’m not doing myself. But that, knowing who you are, and that solidity makes you grounded, feet on the ground, feeling the earth, feeling the power of the earth. And, in a lot of times, when I’ve helped people around, trying to get a job, they get so focused on the, as you said, jumping on any hook, that they can’t really just enjoy the pond that they’re in right now. And of course, you may get the . . . you might, you might have to take the job, the first job that comes your way, once again. I’m not saying don’t take the right job, or don’t take the job for you if you’re in dire straits, around finances, and you have to, you know, provide for your children, your family. But don’t think of it as that’s the end or be all. Think of yourself as a brand. So if you hold yourself solidly– who am I as Stuart. I’m not the flashy, go lucky, happy guy that’s going to make you feel necessarily great about everything when you’re in a coaching conversation with me. I’m the kind of guy that’s going to hold you and be solid with you, as you explore sometimes intense experiences, all to make you a better leader.
Jeff Altman 13:47
And hat exploration serves in the job search process.
Stuart McCalla 13:53
Absolute. It’s essential in the job search process. That exploration and it was so interesting when I first discovered that because I said I took notes. And as I was talking to my mentors, they would say, ‘Oh, you have a whole bunch of assumptions about the people that you’re interviewing with. That they don’t know you, that they’re not. I mean, how disrespectful that is. If you go into an interview, like this person’s, you know, an idiot. That’s not That’s not, it’s not. it’s probably not gonna go well for you in the job experience. Or this person doesn’t see me or they don’t you know, the way sometimes we hold sour grapes, especially when we don’t get the job or we made a mistake. What happens if we go in and we say, ‘Okay, what is my experience of this? What am I doing in this job search that I noticed is either going great or going not so great. And who are the people that I can talk to who can reflect back to me both the positive things that I’m doing, and also the not positive things and negative things that I’m doing? So you’d have a mirror
5 Ways to Maintain Your Job Search and Foster Resilience
Stuart McCalla 14:04
And you’ll notice folks, that he spoke about himself, because I know so many professionals, so many people looking for work, always blame someone else. Yeah. It’s their fault. Why aren’t they (fill in the blank)? You’ve got a part in this equation, too. So there’s a dynamic that exists between you and other people, that helps to create the flow of the conversation that allows you to either perform at a world class individual or not.
Stuart McCalla 15:42
I love that you’re saying and reminding people that it is . . . there is an equation to this. And I’ll just offer folks how can this person sitting in front of you that’s interviewing you know who you really are. They have 15, maybe 30 minutes talking to you. And they’re making all sorts of assumptions about who you are. So it’s not the person in front of you that’s the issue. It’s what can you do to get past that person to the decision-maker. So let’s be tactical here. Let’s go, let’s go, let’s go less, less theoretical, and more tactical, right. So you’re in any job interview, you’re looking for the decision-maker, and it’s usually not necessary, it’s usually not the person hiring you. And you’re making a good enough impact on the person that’s interviewing you so that you can get past the next level. Be yourself. You’d much rather be yourself and get rejected and not be yourself and get into a job. You’re like, ‘this sucks. right?’ So be yourself. Move as, as, be thoughtful, be kind, be who you are. Hopefully, you’re thoughtful and kind. If you’re not, well, I don’t know what to tell you. But develop that work, develop that aspect of yourself, right. And be thinking of it as a, as a strategic process. You’re in a job interview. I remember going to a job interview and, especially in the tech world, sometimes you have like four or five, six interviews. And you’re like, by the time the fifth one rolled around, I was like I don’t even know if I want to work with this company. This is crazy, right? But there’s a goal that I’m trying to reach. And I know what that goal is. And so I’m going to be strategic about who I’m going to talk to, what am I going to deal with, what am I going to put up with, so I can get to that decision maker and have that in depth detailed conversation.
Jeff Altman 17:34
It’s funny how often . . . Job search is so much like dating, in that people have this nice dating facade to start off with. And often, it takes a long time to lower the guard and open up as a real person so that you can decide whether or not you want to be in relationship with whoever this person is, and they with you. Or whether you’re just going to keep the act up in which case you never know whether they fall in love with you or the act. And the same thing exists professionally with interviews. As Stuart pointed out, be yourself and as I like to say, risk everything by being yourself. Because if you’re rejected because of who you are, wow, that’s great.
Stuart McCalla 18:28
It really is. There’s such a relief when you’re rejected for who we are, for who you are because, if you think what happened if I wasn’t who I was and I ended up getting this job because I’ve done both. So I think I’m what I’m speaking about this. I’ve done both. I remember trying to contort myself into a into a position into a shape so that I could get a job. I got the job and I was extremely miserable. Jeff I was one it was the most miserable job I’ve ever been in and it had nothing to do with the people. It was all about what I was presenting in this position, within this role that I was in
Jeff Altman 19:06
And thus the expectations you created with them.
Stuart McCalla 19:09
That’s right that’s right. And so they were looking for a quiet
Jeff Altman 19:22
They got a one out of three maybe.
Stuart McCalla 19:24
I Hate Cover Letters
Jeff Altman 20:21
I assume . . . Well, folks, I always do a pre interview with my guest. And in speaking with Stuart, one of the things he wanted to speak to are mental models. and how to deploy mental models as part of this. I hand the baton to you. Take it away.
Stuart McCalla 20:42
Yeah, well, mental models are great lenses by which you look at the world and help you make determinations. So there are mental models on the developmental side, like who are you as a person. Enneagram is one that we’ve, I’ve heard people use. The leadership circle profile. Center for Creative Leadership, there’s all these mental models that people use in order to determine who you are as a leader, and who you are as a person. There are also mental models on the kind of work that you do. So I used to do Agile coaching for a long time. So if anybody knows what that is, it’s a type of business methodology around understanding the way work happens in business, both from the individual all the way to this systemic. So integral theory is a great mental model for people to use. Cynefinm David Snowden’s work, it’s a great mental model to use.
Jeff Altman 20:45
Could you spell that for people.
Stuart McCalla 21:38
Sure, and it sounds nothing like how it’s spelled, like how it sounds. It’s CYNEFIN. He’s Welsh, I believe. And he used that’s that I don’t remember what the term means. But whether you’re whether the thing that in front of you, the problem that you’re facing, whether it’s simple, complex, complicated, or chaotic, it’s a great way to look at anything actually. Is it a simple problem? complex problem? Is it a complicated problem, or is it a chaotic problem. And I’m not going to go in and try to explain a class on connection right now. But I think for anybody who’s looking at it, what would be like to take that model and try and wrap your job, your job search into that is a simple problem or me trying to find a job by just going out and sending 200 resumes. This is a complicated problem. Like there’s a best practice that I can use. Is it a complex problem, I don’t know what this thing is. I’m going to keep trying to figure it out. And so I’m going to try all these different tools or tactics, or it’s chaotic. I have no idea what’s going on. So I’m just gonna throw out my resume and stand in the middle of the street. Whatever it is I can do to make sure that people notice me. So having those models are super useful, especially in a job search. So collect models and think of them almost like, you know, when you go to the eye doctor, they put the different lens in front of you. And they’re like, do you see now? You’re like, ‘Nope, still can’t read whatever that thing is, but they, what the right model might get in front of your face. And often they’re like, ‘oh, I can see it clearly.’ Now, I can see what I need to I see what I need to do, or I see my next step. So you know, really use those models. And I would say like, put them in front of your face and look at the problem of your job search from that perspective.
Jeff Altman 23:22
And it seems like that leads to the idea of experimentation.
From Paycheck to Purpose
Stuart McCalla 23:25
Oh, yes. It’s so funny when we were talking last I was I remember saying that. And it also goes with rejection game, but we’ll talk about that in a second. But experiments really are the way that you’re going to get the best job. Should I show up early? Should I show up on time? Should I wear a t shirt? Should I wear a shirt? Should I be myself? Should I be somebody else? These are all experiments that you can try when you’re doing your job search. And I would say write down the experiment ahead of time to say ‘this is what I’m going to be. This is what I’m going to try. And I know I’ll be successful when this happens. So you have an idea, a hypothesis. And then you have the result by which you know that hypothesis is successful. And a lot of times people will go through a job search and not be deliberate about it. The biggest thing for me when I was going through job searches was being deliberate and creating the experiments, the people that I could document and my notes. And it seems like a lot of work for a job. But it is a job. Like getting a job or finding a job is a job in and of itself. So treat it as such and document it.
Jeff Altman 24:43
And it’s for those of you who are younger looking at this over a lifetime.
Stuart McCalla 24:49
That’s right.
Jeff Altman 24:50
And for those of you who are older, you’re looking at it for the balance of your career. Why not?
Stuart McCalla 24:54
Why not? Why not? Because here’s the thing. If you experiment and build resilience, build mentorship, build a team around you, can you imagine if you got the . . . I actually got a job that I loved doing this. I loved the people I was with. Every day, I walked into that job, and I felt I am being well used. And it’s interesting way to put it right. But my work was having an impact. I was sitting with a small, you know, four hundred person company, but I was sitting with the CEO and all the C-suite execs because they valued my opinion. But I also could go and talk to the individual programmer, because they also valued my opinion, because I wasn’t trying to be above . . . it was a it was the best of both worlds. I was able to travel different levels in that organization. I wouldn’t have gotten that job if I hadn’t experimented and thought about what kind of work do I want to do? And I didn’t get that job the first time. And I didn’t get to that job the third time, but I got that job the fifth time.
Jeff Altman 26:01
Beautiful. And you mentioned the term rejection game, if I’m not mistaken.
Stuart McCalla 26:06
Yeah. Yeah. It was a term I came across in the early 2000s. Dating myself.
Jeff Altman 26:14
I hope you’re having a good time.
Stuart McCalla 26:18
Oh, good Lord, Jeff!
Jeff Altman 26:22
I told you, I did this.
Stuart McCalla 26:28
But, you know, getting a no, I remember the first time. I got a no jobs in a job search, and I was like, G-d, I really wanted this job. I knew it’d be great. And I ran across this term, the rejection game. And this was the idea that you go and seek rejection to, to numb yourself a little bit to the idea of getting a no. And so part of my experiments is I would go out and try and get no’s. I would ask, I mean, there was some companies,I’d say like, ‘I could be a vice president at 32 years old. I could be a senior vice president of a large tech company,’ and they’re like, ‘What? Who are you? Don’t call us again? Right?’ That was a clear No, right? There were some other companies that I would try stuff. And they would say, ‘Oh, well, maybe not yet. But if you did these four or five things, we might consider you. Now, isn’t that powerful? That in the rejection, I got learning at the same time, right? That’s what and that’s what you’re looking for. You’re looking for the learning. You’re not looking just to get in. No, you’re looking to get the learnings out of that. I mean, I tried things. I remember asking a very well known designer, for him to be a mentor of mine. He was leading the class with like, 3000 people in it. And how often he said, Hey, can you be a mentor? And he said, ‘Well, I don’t live here.’ And I was so freaked out that he was considering me to be a mentor of mine that I just turned around and walked away. But here’s the thing, he didn’t say no. Right? And so that’s the thing I’m looking for is . . . and I really advise people to really go out and try things. And be not afraid of the now.
Jeff Altman 28:11
And isn’t it interesting how often people are really afraid of the Yes,
Stuart McCalla 28:16
That’s right.
Jeff Altman 28:16
As you, as you just expressed, suddenly, ‘oh, my god, he hasn’t rejected me yet! I’m outta here.
Stuart McCalla 28:24
Well, that’s the thing is, I love that you’re saying that you have to be ready for the yes. Because you probably will get a yes. That will blow your mind. That will freak you out. That will make you sweat buckets, and great. Do it anyway. One of the best advice I got from a mentor is, you know, go for a job that makes you feel like you have to learn something new every day is the best job to be in. And it’s it’s so true. It’s so true.
Jeff Altman 28:54
What haven’t we covered yet that we really should.
Stuart McCalla 29:00
Um Well, I think what I said earlier around being a job seeker, is personal development. And if I can really emphasize that for folks, that it’s almost secondary to the job you get because a job is not the end all, be all. It shouldn’t define you. But if you use it as a way to investigate, develop and learn about yourself . . . Who am I under stress? Who am I? Oh, when things are going great?Great. What do I feel like when I talk about or talk with leaders? What are some of the things that I struggle with when I work with teams or work as an individual contributor and especially for the people who are in what are called underrepresented groups. Keep going. Keep going. Every job isn’t, as I said, it’s not the one that defines you. But it’s who you are as a person. And that’s what you’re looking for.
Jeff Altman 30:01
Beautiful, Stuart. Thank you. How can people find out more about you the work that you do? Everything?
Stuart McCalla 30:09
Well, first of all, I’m on LinkedIn because LinkedIn, but please look me up as Stuart. McCalla on LinkedIn. I’m also on Evolution.team. We’re a world-class group of coaches. I do a lot of work with leaders, especially in transition. So if you’re in a transition state, especially at the higher levels of leadership, right, so if you’re an SVP or higher, even a CEO, so reach out to me there. I’m actually going to be at .la in this week, actually talking about diversity in venture capital. So there’s lots of different ways to find me,
Jeff Altman 30:54
Stuart, thanks for making the time today. And, folks, we’ll be back soon with more. I’m Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter. I do no BS career advice. I do it globally working with people around job search, hiring more effectively, improving their management and leadership, resolving workplace issues, a holistic approach to you and your career. If you’ve got questions for me, you can schedule time for a free discovery call, schedule time for coaching. You can do that through my website, TheBigGameHunter.us. And while you’re there, there’s a ton in the blog that’ll help you. It’s information you can watch, listen to or read. I also have courses and books that I’ve written. Again, available through the website.
Jeff Altman 31:41
Lastly, connect with me on Linkedin at linkedin.com/in/TheBigGameHunter. Have a terrific day and, most importantly, be great. Take care.
Recruiters Are Not Your Friends
ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER
Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter is a coach who worked as a recruiter for what seems like one hundred years. He is hired to provide No BS Career Advice globally. That can involve job search, hiring staff, management, leadership, career transition and advice about resolving workplace issues. Schedule a discovery call at my website, www.TheBigGameHunter.us
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