By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
We all know that employers evaluate for fit as part of their hiring process (and do a pretty bad job of it, if you ask me). Often, job hunters don’t evaluate for fit either and, when they do, don’t have a useful approach to it other than using their “gut.”
On this show, I interviewed Paul Ratcliffe, a career coach and we talk about a methodology for evaluating for your fit with an organization.
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So my guest this time is Paul Ratcliffe. Paul is a certified professional business coach, and he also works with high potential individuals and coaches them through change into senior leadership roles. Paul, welcome to Job Search radio. Great to have you on board.
Hi, Jeff. How are you today?
Fabulous now that I know you are here.
Thanks for arranging this. Been looking forward to it My pleasure.
So let me just start by saying that employers like to think they evaluate for fit, and they do a miserable job of it. After all, their version of evaluating for fit is Paul. That guy kind of reminds me of Henry up on four, you know, and that’s as much as they really do. They compare you with someone that they know Think, think that you’re just like that. In the therapy business, we call that projection. It doesn’t work. And then they get shocked when you join the firm and you’re nothing like Henry. So they make that mistake on their side. But from a job Hunter perspective, I think a lot of people do much the same sort of thing too. They look at their future boss and say, Wow, I really like this person. They are fabulous. So we know there’s got to be a better way for job hunters to evaluate for fit. Am I wrong?
Yeah, absolutely on the nail.
I would hope so, because we know that this was the show idea we’re going to do. So where should a job Hunter start off in trying to figure out whether they really fit the organization they’re interviewing with.
That’s a great question, Jeff, and that there’s lots of different ways that people can start but the model that I prefer to use with people is what’s called a career master fit. And I it, and that’s broken into two basic section, sections that help job hunters figure out what they’re good at, what they’re going to like, where their interests lie. And then they also ask them about how they’re going to feel fulfilled, what things are, maths to them, etc, etc. So, so the model breaks down into the basically into two columns, if you can imagine them. And on the on the left hand side, you’ve got external fit, which I’ll explain in a second, and then the internal fit. So starting with the external fit, what persons first needs to ask themselves is the F stands for function. So what do I like to do? What do I want to do? What strengths, skills, passions do I have? And a good a good question I like to ask people is, have you excelled at anything in the past? Always gives me a really good indication of where people’s true motivations lie, because, if they can remember something that they may excel, that They’re usually driven by motivating and quite passionate about it.
On Knicks, absolutely
yes on the nail, yeah, yeah. So this is all driven by what what they where they exceed in a professional environment. That That means, if people talk about sports, there’s a lot that you can get from asking the right questions and probing and challenging people on that, you know for sure, because it drives the passion so you know. So what is it about the game, or what is about the team that they like, so it definitely fits in there. It’s just unfortunate we can’t to get everybody to play for the next with the chair and make our lives a lot easier. So after we talked through the function, we then move on to the I of the fit model, which is interest in industry. So now that we figured out what we want to do and why we want it and that and what we’d like. Then we figure out where we’re going to apply those skills. We ask, you know, when you take those skills, what you’re going to do with those skills, and who you’re going to work with. And one of the one of the great questions I like to ask in this particular section is, what do you want to avoid? So you might think, you know, I’m really good at x, and I want to go and apply it to y, and then I’m going to get z as a result. And that’s some a lot of the times is not the case. So I do ask that question. It really makes people think about, okay, maybe I was on the wrong path, or, you know, maybe I can apply it in a different sort of way. So I challenge people in that. Environment.
They also work The opposite that you that, the opposite,
that’s a great question, you know, is conversely, what would you like to avoid? You know, it’s always it stops people dead in the tracks, and they think, oh, that’s, you know, it’s really interesting. I haven’t thought of it from that respect, but exactly what you just said, you can find the true passion there. So then we move on to the to the T, which is things that matter. So this is another really important question, because, and I’ll give you a, probably a bad example, but it’s very simple to follow function skill set. You know, I want to be a CEO, and you’ve worked the way through. I want to be the boss of my own business. And then you get to things that match. And I ask about, tell me about what lifestyle that you want to achieve. Tell me where your values lie. Tell me about the geography. Tell me about your workouts, what, what things matter to you. And I’ve had people say I want to be the CEO of a company, but I only want to work 25 hours a week because I’ve got to pick my kids up from school, you know, yeah, let’s find out what, what things really matter to you, and things like ethical values of companies that are going to work for, you know, all of those things that matter. And there’s some spiritual things that matter to people, you know, if people are particularly religious and they’re going into a company that that maybe isn’t that, you know, that way inclined, or has a lot of people not that way inclined, or vice versa. So all of those questions really matter, and that’s another big area that I probe on. So that’s the outline of the external fit, the career fit model. Now we flip into the internal, which is really looking at the individual themselves and really focusing on them. And this can be very challenging for people, because, as we all know, the hardest thing to sell in the world is ourselves, but it really, truly makes them look at themselves. So, so the F in the internal fit is fulfillment. So, so why do you go to work? What purpose or cause or legacy Do you want to create? What difference do you want to make? And when they start answering those questions, I ask them, Why? Why in that? Why is that particularly rewarding for you? So that really challenges them to think about who they are as an individual and watch so they’ve just come out of the things that match on the external fit. Now they’re looking at how they’re going to feel fulfilled in that particular role.
Just
simple word, absolutely, yeah. And one thing I was going to mention is probably a good, good moment to mention this. Jeff is one of the reasons I got into career coaching and exec coaching is 70% of the American workforce is disengaged, and that’s, that’s according to a 20 year ongoing survey by gallup.com I was reading on their website this morning. I do that once a month, and it’s very consistent. And I think fulfillment is one of the big key areas that people don’t, you know, I don’t think they think it through all the way they go for the money, they get the job, and they end up bouncing around from job to job because they’re not fulfilled, or they find themselves stuck in a particular area. So they might like the company, but they’re not going anywhere. They’re not getting promoted. They’re getting overseen for salary increases, etc, etc. Mistakes That is from the fact that most people still have an industrial mindset where they think that if they do a good job, they will work their way up. And they act that way intellectually they know the firm, basically, we appreciate your service. Thank you so much. The economy is how we. Organization,
first. Okay, we’re back. Thank you. Struggle with giving voice. What their needs are in this equation,
what inspires the deep core level on the internal fit. So the I is identity. So that’s some question about what we ask is, who are you now and who are you becoming, or who do you want to become? And a lot of the times, I let silence do the heavy lifting for me there, because it’s important that people really think about who they are now and where they want to be. Can be one. And if you ask, in a way, who do you want to be in one year’s time, everybody says, CEO. You know that that’s not the question is. It’s Who are you becoming as a person? What’s your identity going to be when you when you find this role that you’re looking for? What you know, where are you going to take it, and what you’re going to do with it? So it’s, it’s kind of tipping back into the passion and the purpose and driving the value behind it. So a good question would be to ask, give me some single adjectives that best describe you, so you know and how other people perceive you. Give me one word answers of how you think other people’s but and see if those two things align, and, you know, run some comparisons in there. So it’s really tapping into the person’s identity.
What know whether or not you get that shock expression, because, as we know, ultimately, we have to change in order to get
this Yeah. Very challenging question, yeah, yeah. So another question to throw in there as well is to ask them who their role models are. The answer that you know to say, Well, why? Why is that person your role model? What is it in particular? And a lot of people think that they like you. Touched on it earlier. Think that they like someone, but they don’t really understand why, you know. So we’re really tapping and challenge them on that level as well.
So so now we’re talking about the type of person which stands for time. So typical questions would be, how do you re energize your batteries when you feeling down? What do you do? How do you go about making decisions in life? Are you kind of a knee jerk type person? Are you very logical in your approach? Do you need to know everything? Does everything need to be in order before you you know you move forward. So what type of decisions you make? How do you orient your environment? You walk into a new environment. What’s the first thing that you do? You know, you’re looking for the fire exit doors. Are you looking for the bathrooms? Are you looking for the person to shake the hand? You know what time? So it’s finding out how the person really thinks and how they operate as an individual, and that really helps us to kind of put the icing on the cake
in terms of this, obviously follow Up to this as well, to pull this out further, question.
To be honest with you, Jeff, a lot of the time people can’t answer that question, because it’s something you know, you jump in your in your car and you drive you guys to work. You don’t think about, I need to press the pedal and hold the wheel, and you just do it. And people do a lot of things like that, very, very naturally, and they don’t even think that. They do not even realize what they’re doing, just things like I talked to somebody recently about eye contact when they go in for an interview, because I picked up on the fact that they were not looking at me when I was coaching them. And I said, you know, you need to have a lot more eye contact. And they honestly thought they did. They felt they were staring. But there was a lot of kind of, you know, this business going on. So people don’t really understand what they’re doing until they really think about it. So if they can’t come up with something, I’ll say, let’s put you in an environment and Okay, now tell me what you see, and just think through an environment that you’ve been. In recently. So it’s amazing how people think a lot of the times, you know, they’re asking that they’re looking for the exits before they’re looking for the entrance. You know, they always remember how they come in and they always remember how they go out, but everything in between kind of gets fuzzy.
One of the to change the environment in order to be person that you want to become. Person that you want, yeah, yeah, yeah. How important is when you walk into a reception area, there’s usually a lot to learn about a company when you walk in there, there’s usually historical landmarks on there or awards that they want to know. Those are, those are interesting things you can bring up in an interview that show that you’ve actually done some research, you know, so just tiny little things like that, about being aware of making the most of your time while you’re there, you know, that’s that’s Something that you know, really, really push on people
have, well can take away that often, they forget all this wonderful data.
I They’re on site and being interviewed. Yeah.
So I think once you’ve got an awareness of who you are and where your passion lies, and you’re obviously targeting, hopefully, by then, you’re going to be targeting a company or a role for a particular reason, and you know why you’re going in there. And for me, what I’ve seen in people is, firstly, is that their passion is just elevated because it means so much of them, they’re going for something they really want. You know, they’re not just going to find a job or put a warm body on a warm seat. They’re going for something that they they’re connected with. So that. So when, if you can think of something that you’re passionate about, it doesn’t matter what it is you’re into it. If it’s basketball, you know all the scores, you know all the competitors. You know who the good team and the bad team. But if you’re not into basketball, it’s like, you know. So if you’re into something that you’re going for, and you’re really, really keen on the company, and you’re really keen on the role, you’re much more likely to do a lot of research, because you want to look good, you want to sound good, you want to be knowledgeable, because you actually care about where you go. Like I said, it’s not just a job. Now you’re going for that. You’re going for that role that you’ve been kind of building yourself up to. So, you know that that’s what I really emphasize on this. It seems like a kind of, kind of a boring exercise at times, but, but the end result is it’s just so much different when they when people go through this, because they find a lot more about themselves, not just about what their interests are, what they want to do, but you know, they find how passionate, how passionate they are about certain things in life that maybe they didn’t realize Before,
which bit ahead
of the game the government.
Focus on yourself and
I’m sorry. I was just saying, you have to stand out. You have to I was doing another blood talk a couple of days ago, and I said the same thing. You know, hiring managers nowadays are very, very distant from us. They’re behind portals, behind job boards, so you only got that one opportunity to walk through the door and blow them away. You know, you should walk out knowing that no matter who comes. Was in the door behind you, you’ve you’ve got the job, and by going through this exercise, it will absolutely get you there. Yes,
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I gotta put that bluntly,
because and I got to put that bluntly, because so many people wind up in jobs so soon, hiring
managers. Within one year of the hire report, having made that decision, part of
that is them and their
assessment process that’s completely sincere and coming. It’s
important that people go through this and if nothing else, I mean, there’s, there’s probably 10 or 12 Steps you could talk about before going out to look for a job, as you probably, you know, probably agree on, but with me on that. But this, this is, I think, is one of the key critical steps that people because if you don’t understand yourself, then what you cannot possibly understand why you’re chasing down the jobs that you are. You get to the interview questions for us,
the one just focused on them.
What would I have accomplished during that year?
Like this, but there are questions,
what sort of questions you might recommend to ask in order Yeah,
yeah, a really great question. Jeff, and I think I was in staffing and recruiting for just over 20 years myself, so we’re similar backgrounds and and I think being a hiring manager myself and bringing you know, recruiter after recruiter you know, through through the ranks, the one thing that I always hoped that they would ask me, but never seemed to ask me, was, how many hours per week am I going to really have to work to be effective in this role?
I think, to clarify that one in this role, yeah yeah. And nobody ever asked me that. And I think for me, my point was, if you want to be successful in any job, but particularly in where there’s a lot of research, and in recruitment, as you well know, there’s a lot of research that needs to be done, as well as talking to people, as well as sales and development, marketing, etc, you have to put the extra time in. And I don’t mean sit there till 10 o’clock at night at the desk and kind of scratch around on LinkedIn and hope for the best and talking about, you know, go home and get your work life balance, but be committed, you know. So look out for news articles. Read about the industry, the what the latest trends are in the industries. All of those things show that you are really caring and passionate, and you’ve done your research, and you bring your stuff to the table. You bring your value to the table. So my team, when I had a team previously, was about 70 deep at its absolute peak. And I used to say to people, you know, for everybody who’s certainly based in Houston, everybody knows someone that’s based in oil and gas, everybody so find out who they are. You know, we don’t have to market them. We don’t have to sell to them, but let’s find out who they are and what they do. And, you know, have an interest in the oil and gas cycle, and find out where they where they fit into that, into that cycle. You. So just showing a level of interest like that. When you come in and talk back to your employer, my neighbor works for x, and he does this, it shows them you really caring, and you you’re really getting into the role now. And that’s that’s something I think people can, can really it doesn’t take a lot to go a lot further than the average person, just by putting a little bit more effort.
That’s such a wonderful statement, it doesn’t
take a lot more time. Question is what someone might ask in order to find that someone might
ask, I mean, that that’s that’s a difficult one to kind of broad stroke across every person. Because it really depends, you know, some people, when you ask them about function, they get really fired up, and then they don’t particularly have things that matter to them. So I really focus in, and I can feel that, you know, where the passion lies, that it kind of lights up when they talk about it. But you know, if they’ve got particular strengths and skills and passion, for example, that they ask, ask the employer. I’m really passionate about this. How do you think that I could bring that to the table and that would benefit you as the employer? And I talk a lot to people about everything in this day and age, as you are well aware, Jeff is what’s in it for me, and the employer is thinking like that as well. So think like the employer sat on the opposite side of the desk from you and say, if they bring me in, what’s their return on investment for paying me the salary and the benefits, etc, whatever you decide to come up with, what’s the return on investment? So if you’ve got a particular strength or a skill or a passion that you think you you can that can add benefit to that, to that employer, you’re touching on that return on investment. So ask them that, ask them a question like that. It’s something that they’re not expecting whatsoever. But I am really skilled, or I am strong in this particular area, or I’m passionate about, how do you think if I brought that to the table. How do you think that will get a return on investment for you guys?
I think, I think the overall thing for me in this fit model, and what I tried to emphasize with people, is there’s another part of the Career branding exercise that we go through that looks at what people are authentically. And what I mean by that is people put on a costume to go to work in probably 90% of the time. You know, they’re not really them. How many people have said, you know, if anybody knew what you were really like, you know, it’s that type of approach. So I say to people, if you were your true, authentic self, no holds barred. You know what? What’s that going to look like? And why can’t you take that into the workforce? Because so many people have this facade that they build themselves around, so that this whole career master fit is driven towards being your authentic self, being the true to yourself, and taking that into the workplace. Because if you do that, that there’s no costume to put on, there’s nothing to hide. You can be yourself. You can be passionate, and be purposeful about why you’re going to work, and you know everything else will be in your rear view mirror. You’ll be onwards and upwards.
I so agree. It’s part of what people taking jobs, the wonder
satisfied? Yes,
sure. So you can find me unusual social media platforms, but my website is www dot inspired careers.com, where you can find out some more information about me. It’s very it’s a very personal site about me and my and the coaching that I do. And there’s some sessions on there that are completely free of charge, if people want to to come and talk to me and find out more about what coaching is about, so you can find me on there on the contact page, and my, you know, my direct cell phone is on there, so it really is me that’s picking up the phone, and it really is me that’s answering the email. So feel free to reach out to me. There’s.
Designed to help you succeed. I also want to encourage you job search. There’s so much information that’s available to help you find work so that you don’t have to thrash around figuring it out. Have curious great content available, have curious videos, podcasts. You can ask me questions. Look forward
to helping you next time, take care you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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