By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
Too many job hunters spend too much time on job boards and on LinkedIn jobs when there are things they could be doing that work better.
My guest is Mac Prichard, the host of “Find Your Dream Job” who (also operates a job board) as we look at job boards and their effectiveness and what you can be doing instead of spending 90% of your time on them.
I’m Interviewing For a Job and Saw That It Has Been Re-Posted
So, my guest today is Mac Pritchard. He’s the founder of MacsList, a job or a career hub in the Pacific Northwest. Its mission is to make hiring more human.
He also hosts the weekly career advice podcast, Find Your Dream Job, which I think is terrific. If you’re not listening to it, it’s a great show to bring into your arsenal. Mac, welcome on board.
Great to have you and it’s been a long time. It has been a while. Thank you for having me.
It’s a pleasure to be on your show, Jeff. Thank you. So, I just want to make sure everyone gets this right.
We’re going to talk about, well, you’re a guy who owns a job board. And we’re going to talk today about not using job boards. How does this all work in your thinking? It works like this.
I will be the first to tell you I’m proud of the value our job board in the Northwest offers employers and job seekers. But I’ll also be the first to tell you that you should not spend 100% of your time looking at job boards like mine. You need to think about your goals, the employers you want to target, and improve your job hunting skills.
And you, above all, need to step away from the computer and go out and start talking to people. Because most jobs, as you know, get filled by word of mouth, by referrals. And when you say get away from the computer, I think, as we’re recording this, we’re in the middle of COVID and pandemic and all this other sort of stuff.
And that’s where people are these days is at their computer. But I think I know what you mean. In that you’re saying, don’t spend all your time on job boards.
Spend all your time or most of your time talking to people in one form or another, right? Yes. Let me share some numbers with you. There are estimates out there that as many as 40 to 80% of jobs get filled through referrals, through word of mouth.
But when I ask people who visit my site, and I’m grateful that they come, how they’re spending their time, many people, because they just don’t know any better and don’t know what else to do, spend up to 100% of their time looking at job boards like mine. So think about those two figures, if 40 to 80% of all positions are being filled through word of mouth, and you’re spending 100% of your time, Jeff, looking at job boards, you’re missing out on so many great opportunities out there. So this is, in the end, about how you spend your time and not putting all your eggs in one basket.
It’s funny, I talk to people, and I’ll say, when you work with job boards, basically, what you’re doing is being part of a pond with lots of fish in one hook. And unfortunately, you’re better off being in a different area where there aren’t as many fish, and someone who could steer you to the hook, and even go so far as to put you on the hook, rather than have you compete with all the other fish. Yeah, job boards are an important tool in any job search, you’ve got to pay attention to them, and you’ve got to spend time looking at them, because so many employers do post positions there, but not all employers do.
So you want to make sure you’re looking not only at the publicly posted positions, but at the so called hidden jobs, again, the ones that get filled by referrals. And it’s so funny, people say, so, where do I find the hidden market? As though there’s a place where they all hang out together. And the reality is the hidden market is just very simply firms that don’t advertise to fill positions, because the cost may be too expensive, both in terms of overt costs for the price of the ad, but the covert costs for the resumes that you got to look through, they’re just a waste of time.
And all the spam that you receive, and all the interviewing that you do, are people who just inappropriate when someone could just again, walk the right person in the door. Agreed, Jeff. And I would also say to your listeners, if they reflect on it, particularly if they’re mid career or farther along in their work history, probably the best jobs they’ve had, have come through referrals.
And they’ve come through suggestions from a classmate, a co worker, somebody who said, Hey, so and so’s hiring, you should reach out to her. And I’d be happy to make an introduction or pass along your resume. And I say that because it’s important to understand how hiring works.
Managers want to reduce risk, they want to manage costs. And I think for job seekers, our challenge when we’re out there looking for positions is to understand that system so that we can make the system work for us. Agreed.
Now, I think the people who have the most difficulty with the strategy that we’re going to talk about is those who are less experienced because their networks really aren’t well established. Yeah, I have a year and a half, two years of experience. I went to such and such school.
I’ve already spoken to everyone plus my parents. And what do they do? Well, I think it begins by recognizing that job hunting is like any other skill. It’s something that takes time and practice to learn, but you can get good at it with study and practice.
And the second thing I push back a bit, Jeff, I think even if you’re in high school or college or your recent graduate, everybody’s got a network. Everybody’s got relationships and connections that they can leverage during a job hunt. The challenge is to do it in a strategic, thoughtful, and effective way.
And to do that, they do have to invest time in learning how to practice those skills, but it can be done no matter what your age or whatever point you are in your career. Let’s start off with the junior people because the seniors have an idea, but the juniors, I find, really struggle with this idea. So, what does a junior do to start to build his skills in networking and job search to be more effective beyond simply, I’m just going to go on Mac’s job board and see what he’s got.
My number one tip is this, Jeff, know what you want. Invest time in getting clear about setting your goals. And if you’re using phrases like, I’m open to anything, I don’t want to rule anything out, to me, that indicates you haven’t done the fundamental work in goal setting.
And when you do that work, you make your job search so much easier and you make it so much easier for other people to help you. Because when you’re specific about what you want, you know who to reach out to and what to ask for. Think about the reaction you’re likely to have if you meet somebody who says, I’m doing a search.
If you hear of anything, let me know. And how do you act on that? But think about your reaction if someone, a new graduate or someone early in their career says, I’m looking for an entry level marketing position. I’m especially interested in digital companies.
And I’m trying to identify the marketing agencies in our city that are doing new and exciting work. Do you know of anybody who works in that field that I could talk to? Or can you give me your insights into who the leaders are? Now, the answer might be no, I don’t. But someone walks away from that conversation, they know exactly what you want, and where you want to be and where you want to go.
So, if later, they do hear of something, they’re going to think of you. What you’re doing, folks, is steering them so that anything means nothing to them. The mind just wanders around going, okay, do they want to be a fireman? A barista? Like, what do they want? By directing them, they’re making them think in specific ways.
So, when they hear of something, they go, who was it who told me that? Oh, yeah, I remember. And start reaching out and making recommendations. Agreed, Jeff.
And the other point I’d make, because I see people not only early in their career, but later, too, struggle with this. Sometimes, they have multiple interests. And they say to me, well, gosh, Mac, I’m not sure.
But usually, when I press, there are two or three goals that they’re most interested in. And it’s okay to say to someone, I’m interested in a entry-level marketing position. I’m also interested in exploring opportunities in non-profit fundraising.
Now, those are two different areas. And as you have conversations with both employers and through informational interviews with others who know about those two fields, you may decide that you’re more excited about one than the other. And that’s a good thing, because it helps you, again, get clear about what you want.
And also recognize that in the course of a 40-year career, you’re probably going to have five, seven different occupations. And that’s a good thing, too. But to get the most out of those positions, you got to be clear about what you want.
Absolutely. And I’ll just simply say that there’s so much that can be done through informational interviewing. When you talk with people about informational interviewing, that is the process of, I’m curious about this.
What is it like to work in this field? How do you coach people to prep for an informational interview as the job hunter, as the explorer in the process? Treat it like a business meeting. And it’s a business meeting that you’ve called. And so, like any appointment, professional appointment, you need to have an agenda and you need to have clear outcomes about what you want.
This is not about picking somebody’s brain or taking folks out for coffee. And those are fine things. I’m not belittling those ideas.
But at the end of one of these conversations, Jeff, you should have accomplished three things. And you can do this in 20, 30 minutes, max. The first thing is to share your goals and your story.
Second is to ask some specific strategic questions about the world that that person knows. And the third is to get introductions or suggestions about two or three others in the field that you might contact. So that when you leave that room, Jeff, this person knows who you are, what you want.
They’ve given you some specific insights into challenges or the profession that you want to talk about. And they’ve agreed to share two or three contacts. That is a successful informational interview.
Agreed. Now, I’m curious, when they’re in the process of asking questions about what it’s like in the field, how in-depth should they go? What sort of things might they probe in order to make their own decision about, is this field right for me? I encourage people to look at the challenges that they face in their job search and think about the objections that you’re carrying around in your head. And we all do this during a job hunt.
You think, I’ll never get a job because fill in the blank. I’m too old. I’m too young.
I don’t have any contacts. I don’t know anyone at this company. I’m trying to switch sectors.
I don’t have a college degree. Whatever the list, write it down. Pick out your top five or 10.
And then turn them into questions that you can ask people in these conversations. So, for example, if you’re looking for a professional position, you haven’t finished college, find people who have the job that you want who don’t have a BA and ask them what challenges they faced during a search because they didn’t have a degree. How did they address those challenges? What was persuasive to employers that in the end led to a job offer and a position? And you can do that with any of these objections.
If you’re thinking about switching careers, for example, and you think you need a degree in that field, find somebody who made the switch without that degree and ask her how she did it and what challenges she had to overcome to get that offer. And again, these are probably four or five questions, but it’ll give you great insights into how you need to position yourself and understanding in what the concerns of the employers are. Fabulous.
And I want to make sure we now segue into more experienced people. So, in doing that exploration, let’s say I’m the senior director or VP, I want to position myself for the C-suite and you’re now doing informational interviews and your background, you judge is not being pristine, whatever that means to you. And thus, as you’re having the conversations, you’re asking much the same question.
Are you targeting people who like you don’t have the ideal background? Or are you just speaking in general terms with people who have made that transition into the C-suite and I perceive this problem in my background. Would you see that as being the case? I think you do both. I think if there are challenges in your background that you’re concerned about, find people that have overcome those challenges so you can learn from their experience and adapt their approaches and ideas accordingly.
But I also think informational interviews are not only about addressing concerns employers might have about your background and skills, but they’re also about identifying the companies that are growing, that are hiring. They’re about finding the employers who are doing exciting things. And this is where you’re getting into the hidden job market, whatever stage in your career you are.
Because again, if most positions or if only many positions are filled through word of mouth, these informational interviews are a great way to find out about those upcoming opportunities. And we can talk about the kind of conversation or questions you might ask to do that if you like. I love that.
So, what kind of questions might you ask? I think avoid the question. I think you start by finding out who’s growing, who might be adding staff, who’s doing interesting work, who just got a new contract. And I think it’s also okay, Jeff, in that context to say, do you know of anybody who might be hiring? But I wouldn’t lead with that.
To me, I think you’re better served as a job seeker by identifying who the, again, knowing what you want, who are the leaders and the growing employers who offer those opportunities. I’m a Northeasterner by history. And in the Northeast, the idea of networking, they’re afraid of being seen as one of those people.
You know, I’m a mooch. You only hear from me when I need something from you. And thus, they’re afraid to do it because there’s a connotation in their mind associated with it.
So, when you’re talking about asking, who do you know who, which is one of my favorite questions for networking, they feel uncomfortable at times. And what do you tell those people to encourage them to do it, even though they’re uncomfortable? Two things. First, recognize that most of us want to help others.
Really, 99% of human beings want to be of help to others. And when people say no or they don’t take meetings, my experience has been that it’s often because the request is so open-ended, the person receiving it doesn’t know what’s involved and either ignores it or says no because they’re afraid it’s going to be a lot of work or they’re not sure how they can help. So, the more specific you can be in your request for help, the more likely people are to say yes.
And people feel good when they help others. So, you’re not being a mooch if you’re specific about what you want and you lay out a path that makes it easy for not only for someone to say yes to a meeting, but to help you. The second point, Jeff, I’d make is networking is not only about asking for help.
It’s also about being of service to others. And you need to make time in your own career for these meetings, whatever stage of your career you’re in. And not only take informational interviews, but look for ways to give back in your profession and your community.
This could take the form of volunteer work with a professional chapter or other volunteer work that you do in the community. So, networking is not just about asking. It’s also about giving.
I agree wholeheartedly. I know in my career, I’ve spent time with individuals, even when I was doing headhunting, to talk with them about what they might do, even though I would never earn a fee from them. And I knew it going into the conversation, but folks need help.
And they don’t know what they’re doing. And they just need a guide somewhere along the line who can direct them. And you can learn how to do this.
And I would love to share a story on our podcast. We talk to people who found a job they love, and they talk about their journey. There was a guest recently who moved to Portland, Oregon from Washington, DC, and she had a high-powered Washington, DC resume.
She worked as a deputy communications director for Chuck Schumer. So, she knew everybody on Capitol Hill, but she was also a trailing spouse. Her partner had gotten a position, I think, at Nike.
So, her challenge was she had to create a network all 2,300 miles away in a new city where she didn’t know anyone. And she did that through informational interviews. And she knew specifically what she wanted, and that helped her figure out who to approach.
And the reason I want to tell this story is twofold. One is, as somebody who’s going to be in this place for a long time, what she did in the course of six months was create a network. She talked to more than 100 people, but she will keep running across those people again and again in the course of her career.
The other reason I want to tell this story is I asked her, how many jobs did you apply for? And she said, well, I think seven. And I said, how many interviews did you get? Six. And how many offers? Well, a couple.
So, most people, when I talk about networking, they think 100 meetings. Oh, my gosh, that’s so much time. But I would challenge people to reflect on this.
Well, I meet people all the time who’ve told me they’ve applied for 100 jobs. And if they’re doing it right, they really should be spending about two or three hours on each application, customizing the resume and the cover letter, doing research. This lady spent about two or three hours probably preparing and following up and taking these meetings.
But at the end of the day, she got more interviews, I think, than most people would by firing off applications to positions on job boards. And she also looked at job boards, but she also got a network that’s going to serve her throughout her career in her new state. And she’ll be able to be of service to that network as well.
It’s so funny you mentioned these things, because my belief is you never apply for a job through an tracking system. It’s called the black hole for a reason. Sometimes you do have to apply.
I mean, I’m sorry, I forgot. I forgot. Well, I mean, it’s as you know, and I think everybody watching knows, sometimes there is a formal job application process, but that doesn’t mean that referrals don’t still matter.
There’s a back door and a front door. And you can get a job through the front door, but you increase the likelihood that you’re going to get both an interview and perhaps an offer by using both doors. Right.
And every once in a while, there’s a side door as well, but that’s a different conversation. I’m not going to talk about the side door today. I want to know the difference between the back door and the side door, Jeff.
It’s the one where you break the rules. This is the side door. The side door is where you break the rules.
So, the back door is the one where you’re using your connection. But the side door, like breaking into a nightclub during the height of a period of time, is figuring out how you break the rules to get in. But I think I’ve done a video about that previously.
We’ll talk about it another time. The idea very simply is your goal is to get the interview. And with getting the interview, it’s about ultimately getting hired.
And the investment of time in the network, as long as you continue to support your network between jobs, and don’t turn this into a transactional process, will serve you. And I’m going to go back to being a Northeasterner, where everything is about now, now, now, now, now. And there’s not a lot of texture.
The people who provide texture in the relationships are different. But the goal is to be of service to one another throughout your careers. It is.
And people who do that and practice that regularly, I think have the most rewarding professional lives. Great. So, we’re talking so far about not always using job boards, because statistically, it just doesn’t make sense.
Number two is building a network, and using that as your gateway to opportunities. Within that, using informational interviews as an approach to clarify any misconceptions you have about the role, your career, the market in the area that you’re in, things along those lines. And the hidden jobs, the positions that don’t end up on boards like mine.
Right. So, what else can people be doing to find work once they’re not using job boards? Get good at job hunting is a skill. And that means don’t wing it, whether you’re preparing a cover letter, updating your resume, getting ready for an interview, doing follow ups after conversations with an employer.
It’s a skill, and you need to study it and practice it. And you don’t need an advanced degree in this, but you can’t take these steps for granted. Because you’re competing, Jeff, against people who are studying and practicing.
And if you do it as well, you’re going to have a much greater likelihood of getting the job you want and the interviews you want. You know, when I was on your show a few years ago, I spoke about how to effectively interview. And one of the things I spoke about is most people go to interviews and they wing it.
And every great athlete I know practices, every great entertainer rehearses, and job hunters go on interviews. And the first time the words ever come out of their mouth are at the interview. And they wonder why they don’t get the job.
And I think it’s because people are nervous. They just don’t know any better. They haven’t done a lot of research.
They haven’t had the opportunity to study and practice these skills. It’s unfortunate, and there are opportunities to practice. The idea is to get a coach, highlight my face here for a second, to help prepare you for interviews.
You can do mock interviews with your coach. You can do mock interviews with other people who can really guide you. Most coaches, myself included, aren’t going to help you be better at what you do.
That skill is with you. You have to know how to do what you claim to know. But we help with all the packaging related to the job search, so that this way you perform at a high level, and people will respond well to you, especially by comparison to the people who are winning it.
Agreed. I’m a big fan of coaches, and I do meet job seekers who are on a tight budget, and they say, I can’t afford that. Well, if you went to college, the odds are good that your career center at your alma mater will have some services that can help you.
You can also check in with the local office of your state employment department. And there are so many resources online that you can, through self-study and practice, learn. But however you do it, whether it’s working with a professional like you, or taking advantage of these other resources, you got to put in that time, because your competitors are doing that.
And if they aren’t, you’re just like everyone else. There’s nothing to distinguish you from the others. So, how does someone get around to choosing you, except you got dumb luck going for you? And that’s not good odds.
No, you have to make your own luck. And you do that by being, again, clear about what you want, and then investing the time to understand the employer’s needs and investing time in practicing these skills that we’ve talked about. So, Mac, there’s so much we can cover, because you and I are veteran people.
We know the job hunt and drill. And I want to make sure that I don’t miss on any points that you’ve wanted to cover for today’s show. What haven’t they asked you about yet that you think would be useful for people to hear about? Number one tip is this, Jeff, don’t wait to be picked.
I find when I talk to job seekers through a series of questions, usually if they say, I don’t know what I want to do, eventually it comes to the surface, and that’s good. So, most people know what their goals are, and they know where they want to work. And if they don’t with some work, they can figure that out.
But once you know that, don’t be the person who checks the website of that company every day. You should check the website. You should look at job boards.
But if you know the place where you want to work, start building relationships with people inside that organization now. Don’t wait for a posting to pop up because, again, your competitors are networking inside that organization. And many positions may never end up on the website.
They might get filled through referrals alone. So, don’t wait to be picked. That’s in following someone.
How would you suggest they learn about that organization, do their research about it? What sort of things might they do in anticipation of trying to get in the door somewhere? A couple of ideas come to mind. One is you can do informational interviews with people inside the organization. If you don’t know anyone there, two great sources for leads are LinkedIn.
Look at your LinkedIn contacts. And if you don’t have a first-degree connection, the odds are good that you probably have a second-degree connection. If you’ve only got 50, 100 LinkedIn connections, then you need to spend some time building out your network, adding the classmates, the former coworkers, supervisors, people you know in the community.
And in time, you will see those second-degree connections. A second good source of leads for people inside an organization where you want to work is your alumni database, whether it’s a university or college. And gosh, Jeff, some high schools have alumni databases now.
But if it’s a large employer, the odds are good that probably a fellow graduate is inside that organization. And I’ve never met anybody who won’t make time to talk to a fellow grad. And the third thing to keep in mind is if you know you want to work inside an organization, start telling people that.
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Overcoming Ageism in Your Job Search as an Experienced Professional
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