EP 211 Based on a speech by Seth Godin, he contrasts management with leadership, arguing that traditional management focuses on efficiency and following established systems. He contends that this approach is inadequate in a rapidly changing world. Godin champions leadership, which involves taking responsibility, embracing failure as a learning opportunity, and solving interesting problems with empathy and design. He emphasizes the importance of making decisions, quitting strategically, and understanding that real skills are attitudes that can be learned. Ultimately, Godin encourages listeners to lead by connecting, challenging, and building a culture that empowers individuals to make a difference, moving beyond fear and embracing vulnerability.
Neurodiversity and Coaching
Welcome to the Deep Dive. Today, we’re going deep into this idea of leadership versus management. Ooh, yeah.
We’ve got some great stuff from Seth Godin from his talk at the Nordic Business Forum. And I think this is going to be one of those deep dives. Yeah.
That kind of changes how you look at work and maybe even life. It really is. And in a world that’s changing so fast, I think it’s a really critical distinction to understand.
Yeah, for sure. So Godin starts off talking about management. And he uses this really cool analogy of a fjord, those inlets carved by glaciers.
Right, right. This idea of slow, steady, repetitive action wearing away at the rock over time. Yeah.
So it’s powerful imagery, but how does that connect to management? Well, if you think about some historical figures like Henry Ford or Frederick Taylor, these were the guys who were kind of the pioneers of scientific management. And their focus was all on efficiency, standardization, and obedience. Right.
You know, creating systems and processes to get things done in a very predictable way. Yeah. And that’s really where the fjord analogy comes in.
It’s about that steady, consistent force that shapes the landscape over time. I love that. And then he has this really amazing example, a video of a guy in India making chapatis.
Oh, yeah. Have you seen this? It’s like… It’s incredible. It’s mind-blowing.
It’s like a personally choreographed dance of efficiency. Yes. You wouldn’t believe how many he can make in a minute.
Yeah, it’s amazing. And it just highlights how effective management can be in a stable environment. Yeah.
You think about businesses like McDonald’s. Their success is built on having these consistent, replicable processes. You deliver the same product the same way every time.
Every time. Yeah. And that’s great.
But then Godin throws this curveball. He says management in its traditional sense… Yeah. …just doesn’t work when you’re dealing with rapid change.
Right. But why? Why does that tried-and-true approach suddenly fail us? Well, because it’s all built on authority, right? Somebody dictating what needs to be done. Right.
But what happens when nobody knows the right answers anymore? Yeah. When the old playbook doesn’t apply, that’s where leadership comes in. Leaders don’t rely on authority.
They take responsibility. Okay. I think I see where you’re going with this, but can you give me an example? Absolutely.
Godin uses this fantastic story about conductors interpreting Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony. So you’ve got Toscanini, this very authoritarian conductor, demands obedience from the orchestra. And then you have Ben Zander, who takes a very different approach.
He researches, he experiments, and then he presents his unique interpretation and takes responsibility for the outcome. Wow. He’s not afraid of being wrong.
So it’s not just about doing things right. It’s about being willing to be wrong, to experiment, to take risks. It’s about embracing the unknown, even when it feels a little scary.
Exactly. And that ties into this concept of being lean. Okay.
Which is all about being wrong, learning, and iterating, failing forward. I think a lot of people struggle with this idea of being wrong, especially at work. You know? Right.
Thoughts About Work-Life Integration
Where mistakes are often seen as failures. So how can we encourage that experimental mindset, that willingness to embrace the unknown? Well, Godin has a pretty radical suggestion. He says, skip the meetings.
Wait, seriously, just skip the meetings. He argues that meetings are often a symptom of people trying to avoid taking responsibility. They’re waiting for somebody else to make the tough calls.
So instead of sitting in another pointless meeting, go do something that matters. So it’s not about being reckless. It’s about being intentional and focusing your time and energy on the things that actually matter.
Right. And this leads into another really interesting point that he makes. He suggests that school itself was designed to produce compliant factory workers.
Wow. That’s a pretty bold statement. So is he saying that education is just fundamentally flawed? I think what he’s highlighting is the difference between school, which is often about standardized tests and grades, and true education, which is about solving interesting problems and learning to lead.
So how do we break that gap? How do we encourage a more entrepreneurial, leadership-driven approach to education? Well, it starts with encouraging curiosity, right? Critical thinking, a willingness to challenge the status quo. Yeah. It’s about fostering an environment where students feel empowered to take risks, to experiment, to learn from their mistakes.
He uses a really powerful example from the world of sports, Bennett, mooring the football player who missed the game-winning kick. Oh, yeah. And instead of making excuses, he owned his mistake and saw it as an opportunity for growth.
Yeah, that’s a great example of taking responsibility, even when it’s difficult, right? It’s about recognizing that setbacks are inevitables. Yeah. But they don’t have to define us.
We can choose to see them as learning opportunities and use them to fuel our future success. And, you know, speaking of taking responsibility, that leads us to another really important distinction that Godin makes, the difference between quality and excellence. So what’s his take on quality? It seems like that’s something we all strive for in our work.
Well, he argues that quality is really just about meeting spec. Okay. Doing what’s expected consistently and reliably.
Right. And he credits W. Edwards Deming, who was a pioneer of quality control, with really revolutionizing this concept. Yeah, didn’t Deming have a huge impact on, like, the Japanese auto industry? Absolutely.
I vaguely remember something about that from, like, a history class or something. Yeah, Deming’s ideas completely changed the way we think about quality. He basically flipped the script on the traditional assembly line process.
Instead of just catching defects at the end of the line, he said, let’s focus on preventing them in the first place. I like that. And his approach had a huge impact, not just in Japan, but around the world.
So if quality is about meeting expectations, then what’s excellence? How does Godin define that? He asks this very simple but really profound question. Okay. If a human who cared were here, what would they do? So it’s about going above and beyond, bringing a human touch to everything we do.
Precisely. It’s about caring deeply about the work, the customer, the impact you’re making. Okay.
It’s about doing what a human who truly cares would do in any given situation. That’s really powerful. Do you have an example of what that might look like in practice? Yeah, he shares this great example of a teacher who empowered his students through photography and storytelling.
Oh, wow. So instead of just following the prescribed curriculum, you know, he tapped into their passions and helped them learn in a way that was meaningful and engaging. So it’s not just about delivering the information.
It’s about helping them connect with it on a deeper level, seeing them as individuals, not just students. Exactly. And that’s what excellence is all about.
It’s about seeing the human beings behind the tasks, the projects, the deadline. Yeah. It’s about bringing our whole selves to our work and making a real difference in the lives of others.
I think that’s something we can all aspire to no matter what our role is. Absolutely. It’s a mindset.
It’s an approach to life that can really transform the way we work and the way we interact with the world around us. OK, so we’ve got quality and excellence. But how do we actually apply these concepts? How do we bring them into our daily lives? Well, Godin talks about the importance of design thinking.
And it all starts with asking two very crucial questions. Who is it for and what’s it for? So he’s not just talking about aesthetics here. We can design systems, experiences, even pricing models.
That’s right. But it all begins with understanding the who and the what. OK.
Who are you trying to reach with your work, your product, your message? And what change are you trying to create in their lives? It seems like a very intentional approach to problem solving. But I guess there’s always a risk of getting bogged down in the planning phase, right? There’s always a balance to be struck. But I think what Godin’s empathizing is that the more specific you are with those answers, the more likely you are to actually connect with the right people and make a real impact.
It’s about focusing your energy and effort on the things that truly matter. Exactly. So how do we overcome those moments of self-doubt, you know, when we’re trying to do something new and challenging? Yeah, that feeling of leader’s block that Godin talks about.
I think we’ve all experienced that. Absolutely. Well, Godin actually has a pretty humorous take on this.
- He claims that Percy Shelley actually invented writer’s block. Wait, Percy Shelley, the romantic poet? The very same.
How did he invent writer’s block? He romanticized this idea of creative paralysis, you know? OK. He made it fanimal to kind of agonize over the blank page. OK.
Inspiration vs. Motivation: Igniting the Human Spirit
And Godin argues that this kind of thinking can be really paralyzing, not just for writers, but for anybody who’s trying to lead, to create, to make a difference in the world. So how do we move past this fear? Is it just a matter of willpower or is there something more to it? It’s about making a conscious decision to lead. It’s about recognizing that fear is a natural part of the process.
Yeah. But it doesn’t have to hold us back. You know, think about leaders like Jeff Bezos or Steve Jobs.
They were known for their bold actions, their willingness to embrace the possibility of failure. Right. They weren’t afraid to put themselves out there to experiment, to iterate, to learn from their mistakes.
It’s a great point. If we’re not willing to take risks, we’re essentially choosing to stay stuck. Exactly.
But it’s one thing to say be brave and another to actually do it. So how do we actually cultivate that courage to take action even when we’re feeling afraid? Yeah, that’s a great question. Well, Godin highlights the importance of what we traditionally called soft skills.
Right. He actually calls them real skills. And I think he’s onto something here.
Because they’re becoming increasingly important in a world where automation is taking over so many of the technical tasks. Exactly. Think about Godin’s thought experiment with the magical computer, which is basically LinkedIn as we know it today.
You know, when we’re looking for somebody to work with, we’re not just looking for technical skills anymore. Right. We want somebody who’s loyal, fearless, connected, engaged, somebody we can trust.
Right. And those are attitudes, but they’re also skills that can be learned and developed. It’s amazing how much those soft skills matter when you’re trying to build trust and rapport, you know, especially on LinkedIn.
Absolutely. So how do we actually get better at these real skills? Is it something we’re born with? Or can we learn to be more empathetic, more courageous, more engaged? Yeah, that’s the question. Well, Godin argues that these skills are not innate.
They’re learned. OK. They’re developed through practice, through experience, through putting ourselves out there and engaging with the world around us.
So it’s about stepping outside of our comfort zones, challenging ourselves to grow and evolve. Exactly. It’s about recognizing that we’re all works in progress.
And that journey of personal and professional growth is never really finished. OK. So we’ve talked about the importance of these real skills.
But leadership is also about making tough decisions. So how can we become better decision makers, especially when the stakes are high? Well, Godin brings in Annie Duke, who’s a world champion poker player. Wow.
To kind of shed some low on decision making. And she makes a really important point that I think a lot of people miss. What’s that? She says that most people confuse outcomes with good decisions.
Just because something worked out. Right. Doesn’t mean it was a smart choice.
So we shouldn’t just focus on the results. The process matters, too. Absolutely.
We need to shift our focus from just getting lucky to making informed strategic decisions based on the information we have at the time. So how do we do that? How do we become more strategic in our decision making? It starts with understanding the difference between a choice and a decision. Wait, aren’t those the same thing? Not according to Godin.
He says a choice is something simple, like vanilla or chocolate ice cream. OK. A decision is something much bigger, like deciding whether or not to quit your job.
So the stakes are higher with a decision. There’s more risk. Exactly.
And Annie Duke argues that the biggest mistake people make when making decisions is focusing on the sunk costs. What are sunk costs? I’ve heard that term before, but I’m not sure I fully understand it. Godin describes them as gifts from our past selves that we don’t have to accept.
- It’s that feeling of being trapped, you know, by the time the money, the effort we’ve already invested in something. Oh, I know exactly what you mean.
We’re afraid to walk away because we feel like we’ve already put in so much. I’ve definitely stayed in jobs longer than I should have because I felt like I couldn’t just throw away all those years of experience. Right.
So you’re saying we shouldn’t let those sunk costs dictate our future decisions. Precisely. The past is the past.
We can’t change it, but we can choose to let go of it and focus on what’s best for us in the present moment. So how do we know when it’s time to quit something? When are those sunk costs actually holding us back? Godin says there are two good times to quit before you start if you realize you just don’t have the resources or the commitment to see it through. OK.
Or at the end, if you’ve achieved what you set out to do or if it’s no longer serving you. But what about that challenging phase in the middle? You know, the dip, as Godin calls it. That’s when most people give up, right? Exactly.
And that’s where perseverance and a willingness to kind of push through adversity are so crucial. It’s about recognizing that challenges are inevitable, but they’re also opportunities for growth and learning. So it’s not about quitting when things get tough.
It’s about quitting strategically when it’s truly in our best interest to do so. Right. And that requires a lot of self-awareness and honesty.
You know, we have to be willing to ask ourselves some tough questions. Is this still aligned with my goals? Am I still learning and growing? Is this bringing me joy? Those are some really important questions to ask ourselves, not just in our work lives, but in all areas of our lives. Absolutely.
OK, so we’ve talked about decision making and the importance of quitting strategically. What other key insights does Godin offer for aspiring leaders? He really stresses the importance of empathy. You know, putting yourself in the shoes of the people you’re trying to serve.
He has some great examples. J.K. Rowling writing for a young audience. John Wooden coaching players much taller than himself.
Even the man who invented pantyhose. Yeah. Understanding the needs of women.
It’s about recognizing that everyone has their own unique perspective. Right. And really trying to understand their motivations, their desires, their needs.
It’s about connecting with people on a human level, seeing them as individuals, not just statistics or data points. Exactly. But how do we actually cultivate empathy? Is it something that can be learned? I think Godin believes that empathy is a skill that can be developed like any other skill.
- It starts with being present, listening, attentively asking thoughtful questions. Being curious about other people’s experiences and trying to see the world through their eyes.
Exactly. And it’s also about being vulnerable enough to share our own experiences and connect with others on a deeper level. I think that’s such an important point.
Vulnerability is often seen as a weakness, but in reality, it’s what allows us to connect with others in a meaningful way. Absolutely. It’s about being authentic and allowing ourselves to be seen for who we truly are.
And that’s a quality that people are drawn to, especially in leaders. OK. So empathy is crucial for leadership.
But how do we actually bring our ideas to life? How do we turn those ideas into something tangible, something real? Godin talks about the importance of an MVT, a minimum viable product. That’s a term I hear a lot in the tech world. But what does it actually mean? It’s about testing your ideas in the real world and getting feedback early on.
It’s about iteration and continuous improvement, not trying to get everything perfect from the start. So getting your ideas out there and seeing what works, not being afraid to experiment and make adjustments along the way. Right.
And he shares this really fascinating story about Bill Actinson, who was one of the pioneers of the graphical user interface. Yeah, the guy who developed the Windows system for Macintosh? The very same. Wow.
He had this vivid memory of seeing a feature during a visit to Xerox PARC that didn’t actually exist. But because he believed it was possible, he was able to create it himself. So it’s almost like our beliefs can shape our reality.
If we believe something is possible, we’re more likely to find a way to make it happen. Exactly. Once we see something as possible, we’re more likely to take ownership and find a way to make it happen.
That’s incredibly inspiring. It suggests that we’re not limited by our circumstances, that we have the power to create our own reality. But how do we cultivate that belief in possibility? How do we move past those limited beliefs that hold us back? Godin talks about the importance of surrounding ourselves with people who inspire us, who challenge us to think differently, who see the world through a lens of possibility.
He uses that example of the Solvay conference, that iconic photo with all those brilliant physicists. Oh yeah, Einstein, Marie Curie. Yeah.
And what’s amazing is that most of them won their Nobel prizes after that photo was taken. That’s right. So it’s like being surrounded by those incredible minds sparked something within them.
It’s about the power of possibility. Right. And the inspiring impact of being part of a community of like-minded individuals.
But how does that relate to our everyday lives? You know, most of us don’t have the opportunity to rub shoulders with Nobel Prize winners. It’s about cultivating mindfulness, being present, and recognizing opportunities even when things don’t go as planned. It’s about embracing the unexpected and seeing setbacks as stepping stones to something greater.
So it’s not just about who we surround ourselves with, it’s about how we choose to see the world. It’s about having a mindset of possibility, of abundance of growth. Right.
And being open to new experiences, new ideas, new ways of thinking. It’s about stepping outside of our comfort zones and embracing the unknown. It sounds like Godin is encouraging us to approach leadership with this sense of playfulness, this willingness to experiment, and this deep sense of empathy.
It’s a very human-centered approach, which I think is really refreshing. Yeah. But he also acknowledges the challenges of leadership, right? It’s not always sunshine and rainbows.
Absolutely. Leadership requires courage, especially when faced with uncertainty and risk. Right.
And Godin reminds us that we put footprints on the moon. Wow. It’s a really powerful reminder of what’s possible when we dare to dream big and take bold actions.
Like he’s saying, if we can do that, what else is possible? Exactly. And I think he’s challenging us to consider our own potential, our own capacity to make a difference. What legacy will we leave behind? What impact will we have on the world? It’s a call to action, an invitation to step up and lead to create something meaningful to make our mark on the world.
So what does this all mean for you, our listener? What will you do with this knowledge? How will you apply these principles of leadership in your own life and work? What change will you make? That’s the real takeaway from this deep dive. It’s about recognizing the power we all have to make a difference, to create something new, to lead with courage, empathy, and a willingness to embrace the unknown. So go out there, be bold, take responsibility, and make your mark on the world.
Until next time, keep diving deep.
