JeffHi, this is Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter, and welcome to Job Search Radio on webtalkradio.net. My guest is Karen Mattonen, who owns Advanced Career Solutions and operates a blog called HireCentrix that helps job hunters, shall we say, navigate some of the legal issues that they are unfortunately forced to come into contact with. Karen, welcome to Job Search Radio. Great to have you on.KarenThank you for having me on board too, Jeff. I appreciate being here.JeffYou’re welcome. You know, one thing I know is that when I deal with many job hunters, they are the biggest obstacles to their own success. They make the mistake of believing that the skills needed to find a job are the same as the skills needed to do a job. And as you and I both know, they complement one another, but they’re completely different skills. What sort of mistakes do you see job hunters making that cost them opportunity after opportunity and makes their job search go on so much longer?KarenOne of the biggest mistakes that I see that job seekers have is that they often assume way too much when they go into the interview. As a recruiter, one of the things that I prefer to do is not to give the job seeker too much information about the career opportunity or about the job. And I even suggest to them not to go look at the job description too much because then they go in there assuming too much about the job, and then they don’t ask enough questions. They think that they really understand what the HR manager is looking, not realizing that that job description is pretty generic, and they really don’t understand what that HR manager is really feeling emotionally about what they’re wanting from that person. So…JeffKaren, that’s so—that’s so counter-intuitive to what job hunters believe because most of them actually think they have to study that job description in order to make sure they stay on point with everyone that they meet with. And what you’re saying is don’t overwork it. Am I hearing you?KarenThat’s right. That’s exactly what I’m saying. You know, and I think that’s also what we see recruiters also teach, or even HR managers, like they have this expectation this person’s going to come in knowing what they want. And it’s like, you’ve got to remember, you’re dealing with human beings. So listen. Go in there, take charge of the initial interview from the start, and try to ask as many questions to determine what is this person looking for emotionally and psychologically, not just skill-wise. They’re inviting you to that interview because they can see by your resume that you do have the skills, and they’re going to ask you that. But what you want to find out is do they want somebody who’s going to be more pragmatic? Do they want somebody who’s going to be more independent worker, or are they going to want somebody who can deal with an authoritarian kind of type management? Do they want someone who could fit, you know, play golf on the court, or do they want someone who’s going to be in the office consistently? You can’t go in there assuming you know what they want. Go in there and listen. Go ahead.JeffThat’s—that’s fascinating, Karen. I know, folks, if you’ve been listening to some of my shows, you’ve heard me talk about this question I want you to ask at the beginning of every interview. And that’s designed to draw out content from the interviewer about what they’re looking for and what’s important for them. But you also spoke about trying to pull out information about what they’re looking for psychologically and trying to connect with them emotionally. How would you suggest or what sort of things might someone do in order to do all that?KarenThat’s a good point. Okay, let me give you a suggestion here. If you go into an interview, first off, the first thing you want to do is don’t allow them to ask you that dreaded question, ‘So why are you here and what do you think about us and what do you can you do for us?’ Don’t let them ask you that dreaded question. Go into that interview, look for something in that office that you could kind of like take control of that interview. Maybe you’ll see a picture of a boat, and then you’re going to ask them, ‘Do you go ahead and you do yachting?’ or maybe you see the guy has a surfboard on a picture of him surfing, so then ask him about surfing, or just make a question or statement about the weather. And then kill it. Go ahead and say, ‘You know what? I’m here with you for an interview. I’m sorry for taking your time up. Now can I ask you, what are you looking for in this position?’ Now, then you ask also, ‘What was the person like in this position before, and why isn’t he here?’ And then listen to the key words. Give you an example: if a company, the gentleman is saying or the hiring manager, sorry, is saying, ‘Well, the last person in the position was a really friendly guy, really outgoing, and the problem we had though is that everybody liked him, but he would rather wear a tool belt or be out there on the street or do sales rather than doing the P&L, and we had a lot of shrinkage, we lost a lot. And so that was kind of a concern, but we really liked that he was a really great guy.’ Well, listen to what he repeated. Go ahead.JeffSo what I hear you say was that, you know, they talk about what it is that was so good about this other person, but then they’re going to mention the deficiencies in that person.KarenExactly! Right. I mean, when I usually bring this up to somebody, people go, ‘Oh, yeah, they just want a guy who has strong P&L.’ I’m like, ‘No, but you missed the most important part. They also mention what they really liked about him.’ So what you want to now be is the balance of both. You don’t want to be—because you don’t know if the person before that guy was too much on the P&L and not enough on the friendly. And so now they really are kind of like too scared of getting too friendly and too scared of getting too much P&L. So what you’re hearing is they’re saying that they want both. Become both.JeffGot you. And, folks, just in case you heard the term P&L and you’re not familiar with it, P&L stands for profit and loss. So it’s someone who would, in this particular story, be involved with all the accounting and the record-keeping and ensuring that everyone’s making their sales numbers, versus someone who’s out in the field, as using Karen’s scenario. So, again, the idea becomes instead of just being focused on one element of what they tell you was the effective qualities of the incumbent, you try and find also what those deficiencies were, so that way you can balance out the two.KarenExactly. And I think that’s the problem when we go in to the interview. After reading that job description—the generic job description—you’re going in there and you’re going to ask all these questions about the job description, but you forget we’re dealing with the workplace where you are awake 8 to 10 hours a day, and you’re actually seeing more of them than you are of your own family quite often. And that’s what people are—a person who’s hiring, that’s what they’re thinking: ‘Can this guy really get along with the group of people? Can he be a team player? We may like his experience, we may like this everything else, but can he fit in with our areas of deficiency as well as the areas that are good?’

JeffTerrific. What are other mistakes do job hunters make?KarenOne of the biggest ones I see is that they’re always scared of asking for the job. When that company’s asking, ‘Do you have any questions?’, why not ask, ‘When do I start?’ with a little bit of humor? Remember to ask and cop that for that job. Close, close, close! You may not be a salesperson, but you know what? Be brave. That’s what they want. They want courageous people. And so with a little glimmer, a twinkle in your eye, a smile, say, when they ask, ‘Do you have any more questions?’, say, ‘Yeah, when do I start?’ And then they say, ‘Well, we’re still looking at other people,’ then smile again and say, ‘Well, why? I’m right here.’ And then they—and then, I think you have a good close here too, because like when they’re asking, ‘Well, you know, what…’ You want to find out, if they say, ‘Well, we’re still looking,’ then you also want to find out, ‘Is there anything that I may have missed? Is there something I didn’t tell you? Is there some way that we could close this to show I can demonstrate that I am efficient for this job?’ I think you had a really good close here too.JeffYes, I do, and the question I always tell people to ask is, let’s say it’s a year from now and you’ve hired me, and I haven’t just done a good job, I’ve done a spectacular job, amongst the best if not the best performance of someone you’ve seen in this role before. What would I have accomplished during that year that would cause you to write such a review? And I know from talking with people, number one is they get a clearer picture about what people are going to expect of them if they join, so you can find out if it’s realistic or unrealistic. Plus, employers also get a feel that, you know, you’re not just simply interested in being an average performer, you want to be a high performer in their eyes. So it has multiple messages to it that work very well for job hunters.KarenI think that was one of—when I heard you tell me that, I was bowled over by that. I thought it was totally excellent, and that’s why I really wanted to bring that up again. I was really impressed with that.JeffThank you. Folks, this is Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter, and you’re listening to Job Search Radio on webtalkradio.net. We’re going to be back in a moment with more from Karen, but I also wanted to talk with you about my job search insider tip for this week, which is designed to help you with phone interviews. You see, for many of you, you’re already experiencing the fact that more and more employers are doing phone interviews to begin their interview process instead of face-to-face ones. And phone interviews are easier and harder than face-to-face ones. They’re easier in that no one can see that you happen to be casually dressed, or that you have your resume out in front of you, or that you’re taking notes down. All they have is your voice to go by, and that’s what makes it harder. They can’t be influenced by how good-looking you are or what a great wardrobe you have. They’re just listening to your voice, and that’s what makes it harder.

So here’s a couple of very simple points I want to encourage you to do before your next interview. First of all, number one, take some some notes so that as they’re asking you questions, you write down a particular note in front of you on the resume that you have in front of you. Maybe you circle some of the things on the resume that will remind you to stay on point and to address the issues that have been in your resume as you answer questions. So that’s point number one. Number two is make sure you’re in a place in the house where you’re not going to get disturbed. So often, I know when I speak with people, you know, I’m listening to the sounds of all sorts of extraneous noises behind folks that distract from the experience. So you always want to be in a place where there’re going to be no distractions, no inconveniences, no one walking in on you, and the sound of the TV or whatever electronics you have in the house are not going to be blaring in the background. Finally, and I can’t stress this one enough: rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. You gotta practice answers to obvious questions that you’re going to be asked on interviews.

So that’s my insider tip. Let’s come back to Karen, and we’re going to talk about some more of the mistakes that job hunters make. So what else do job hunters do that stand—you know, keeps them from being effective on their interviews?

KarenOne of the—another big mistake, and I know it seems so remedial like why would people forget this, but they do it quite often, is they often forget to say thank you. Not just the generic, ‘Oh, well, you know, thank you for the interview,’ when you’re leaving. But one thing I always tell my job seekers: make sure you have thank-you cards in your car, and when you leave that interview, go downstairs, write out a thank-you card to every single person you interviewed with. Go back upstairs and give it to the receptionist to give to each individual. And then go home, wait about 48 hours, and send an email—because make sure you’ve asked for the business card for everyone that you interviewed with before you left—and then you go ahead and you email each individual a thank you again saying, ‘I thought about this position, I’m really coveting this position, I’m very interested, thank you for your time.’ And then you say you’re going to call or follow up with them later that week. But you appreciate it. And then you call again later that week because you said you would. That way, they have three different options and three different ways not to forget about you, and they appreciate the fact that you want to work there.JeffSo I heard you talk about was the thank-you card…KarenMhm.Jeff…the email, you know, 48 hours later, and what was the third one that you were talking about?KarenPhone. Make sure that you—in the card, on the email, in the email you say you are going to follow up with a phone call. And the third one is you make that phone call later that week. Usually, you have the email—you meet on a Monday, by Wednesday you send the email, Friday you make the call. All right? They don’t forget about you.JeffThat’s right, they don’t forget about you. And even if you delay that Friday phone call to the following Monday, which I know would be my preference, because I know people like to get away on Friday. And thus, if that’s the case, I’d rather start off the week with the reminder. That’s my taste. In your line of work, you may find it better to do it on a Friday. Regardless, three contacts within a week of an interview is terrific.KarenM-hm. I mean, I remember one person—it’s a little cheesy, but this one person knew that the hiring manager was a golfer. And when—so he wrote on a card that said… first off, he gave the the hiring manager a golf ball. And in the box, he said, ‘When you’re making that decision, here’s your hole-in-one.’ He says, ‘Here’s the ball that will make your hole-in-one. I am that ball.’JeffYou know…KarenIt was a little cheesy, but it worked. It worked. It was—the hiring manager was like, ‘That was unique as heck,’ and I’m like, it was a little cheesy. I did kind of like advise against… I don’t like these those gimmicks, really. I really tell people stay professional. I can see the gimmicks working more in marketing or media, but if you’re if you’re not in marketing or media, stay away from the gimmicks.JeffAnd I had a guest on several shows ago named Abby Kohut, who spoke about people using some of these non-electronic media communication techniques or marketing techniques to get themselves in the door. And Abby spoke about this one person who, in terms of getting an interview, what he would do is send a shoe.KarenYeah.JeffHe put the shoe in a box, mailed it to a manager he wanted to connect with, and basically said, ‘I’d like to get my foot in the door with you.’ And just take about… and someone else, and sometimes he, I believe, used an hourglass in there and it would say, ‘I’d like to take five minutes of your time,’ which was the amount of time of the hourglass, ‘to talk with you about why I would be a great fit.’

KarenYou know, as a person who gets close to 200 resumes a day, that would to me be an interesting distraction, but it’s one of those things I’d be like, ‘You know what? I’d like to know more about you, the person, and I just don’t see something like that fitting in a business structure unless, again, are you going into a marketing firm? Are you going into an advertising firm?’ I could see that working. But if you’re doing something that’s professional business-like, that’s just too gimmicky. It really is. I mean, I had one girl who actually sent out a bunch of flowers and said, ‘Just I could brighten up your office with just like these flowers.’ I’m like, ‘You know, just just stick to the—to the basics. Be yourself, be a businessperson, you know?’ That’s my—that’s my take on that.JeffI hear you. What other sorts of things do people do that cost them opportunities?KarenOh, gosh, trusting the recruiter. I love recruiting…JeffDon’t let—don’t let these folks in on this one. Come on, Karen.KarenI love recruiting. I have been a recruiter for near 20—actually over 20 years. Ah! I’m getting old. But one of the things that I will never do as a recruiter—and I really hate when I hear this question from a lot of recruiters—’Can you tell me where you’re actually looking, where have you interviewed, and, you know, so we won’t duplicate your efforts?’ Right. You know what? The recruiter—most recruiters who ask that question are planning to go ahead and send one of their candidates to that job, and believe me, they’re going to work their way out of it. They want to make sure they place you, and it’s going to make sure that they’re going to also make sure you’re not getting to accept the job offer that might be pending because they’re going to send their best candidates there. They’re out to make money, and it’s going to be at your expense. So when a recruiter goes ahead and asks you that question, you know what you say? ‘You know, I’m confidential with my job search. Just tell me where you want to send me, and I’ll let you know if to if to send me there or not to send me there.’ Keep it simple. But be careful about trusting recruiters way too much because guess what? They’re in it for themselves too.JeffI know for myself, I have clients that I work for. For me, when I ask that question, it really is about saving time. If a person happens to have been to my client, I’m not going to approach that firm. I already know about the req. You know, so I don’t need them for it. And I’ve got a full plate at this point with clients I’m supporting. So, you know, when all is said and done, for me, it really is about that, but I know especially with less experienced recruiters who don’t have a full plate, they’re in situations where they are trying to get clients, and they are trying to make sure that people don’t get hired at firms that they’re interviewing with, and they will do exactly what you’re talking about, you know, try and fill the job on their own and cost you the opportunity. You so…KarenAnd one of the things as a recruiter, I just say, ‘Look, this is where I’m sending it, sending you out to. Should or should I not send you there?’ And that’s how I know not to duplicate your effort, you know? I’m—so that way you have control of your career and I have control of my search, so that we both can feel safe with each other. I want my candidates to trust me, and I am going to treat them with the respect that they deserve, just as I treat my clients.JeffAnd—and for me, my—my awkwardness about that, and—and I’ve been in the search field for 40-plus years, and I have lost way too many fees and cost myself hundreds of thousands of dollars by being so trusting as to reveal who my client is, and then discover the candidate makes their first or second call after speaking with me directly to that firm because after all, you know, ‘If I can save the firm money, maybe they’ll pay me more, or they’ll like me more if I come in directly rather than from a recruiter.’ Karen, you and I both know that that’s crazy, but firm—people sometimes think that way. And the impact is, I know for myself, you know, I can directly attribute, you know, mistakes I made in being so revealing to candidates earlier in my career to more than a quarter of a million dollars I lost in fees. So…KarenAnd I’ll tell you that’s a mistake candidates make, too, because I’ll tell you right now, too, if a hiring manager also finds out sometimes that you’ve also backdoored a recruiter after you’ve told recruiters told you not to do that—and by the way, recruiters do speak with each other, too—you can become blacklisted. I have actually had candidates blacklisted because of that behavior. There are some companies that I actually do work with on a very strong, loyal basis, and they know that if I talk to a candidate, I told them I talked to that candidate, and believe me, I will send my candidate—my clients the names that I’ve sent—I’ve spoken to before I even submit a resume at times. And so they know that if you decide to go ahead and backdoor me and they know that I would have instructed you not to, that could hurt you as a candidate, too. So don’t ever try to backdoor your recruiter because it will burn you. It will, especially if your recruiter is a specialist, especially if they specialize in the industry that you’re recruiting—being recruited in.JeffAnd folks, just to translate that term ‘backdoor,’ if you think of the front door as approaching the firm directly through let’s say HR, the backdoor is taking that information and approaching them directly to the hiring manager or some other way, you know, in—in what I can only describe as being sneaky and nefarious. You know, you’re trying to hurt the recruiter in all of this for your own betterment, and as Karen said so well, some firms—not all—some firms will look out for us, and I—’blacklist’ to me suggests that they’re going to—you’re going to be banned from all companies forever. That’s not the case.

KarenYeah, not all companies, but my client, I have had a client who will ban, and I have had it happen where they—the huge corporation, I’m not going to name the company, but it’s a Fortune 50 company—they will actually prevent up an individual from being hireable within that company for at least 5 to 10 years. And I mean, and the thing is because they don’t like unethical people. They have—this is one of the most ethical companies. In fact, when you go to work with this company, you have to do 10 ethics classes every single year. And one of the things is, is they’re going to look at your behavior, especially if it’s a government contract firm. If you demonstrate unethical behavior from the beginning, nobody wants to work for you—you know, wants you to work for them because that’s a demonstration of what you’re going to be like to work for them. And straight up as a recruiter, I will never want to work with you, and I will advise to other recruiters that I have that I have connections with—I network with other recruiters that specialize in the industry that I recruit with—we actually do share, you know, like if Jeff was a recruiter in the HVAC industry which I recruited, I would send him resumes with my candidate’s permission. Or I would say, ‘Hey, I’m looking for some good resumes, will you send me some?’ and so we do actually talk. We do have good relationships, and recruit—and people don’t recognize that. Candidates don’t recognize that recruiters that may be in competition with each other are actually friendly competitors, and that can burn you if you cheat, if you lie, or you’re nefarious. We will all know.JeffIt’s a small world, folks. I’m part of a network of several hundred recruiting firms globally. You know, we have affiliates not just in the United States, but Canada, Latin America, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, um, the Middle East, uh, China, Japan, India, a host of other places as well. And in situations where we run into people with what I can just call stories, we’re all looking to ensure that no one gets hurt. So, uh, I may into a scenario where um someone presents a candidate to me, I know the story behind—do you think I’m going to—do you think I’m going to accept that referral? Do you think I’m going to try and do anything to help you get a job? Of course not. Of course not. So, you know, just be smart about these things. Firms have this money and fees budgeted. You don’t have to sneak around to think you’re going to save them money, and I can assure you, they’re not going to pay you any more just because you came in without a fee. The money comes from different budget slots.KarenAnd yes, that money is course it is, that’s also tax-deductible for the firm. My fee is a tax deduction for them. So for them, it’s actually a benefit, as well, it’s not a huge loss. It’s—and even though it is, it’s not a huge loss. Does that make sense?JeffOf course. Is there one other big mistake that people make that you want to bring to their attention? Tell me.KarenThe question, ‘What is your weakness?’ Oh, that one stumps everyone. And I’m like—love that question. That’s one of my favorite questions because I love to state, for example, I talk a lot. Jeff, you know me for a long time. And, in fact, you and I have also been member of the same network that you were speaking of. And one of—everybody who knows me knows Karen kind of tends to go off of the mouth because I’m, like Jeff would say, very passionate. And so when people ask, ‘What is my weakness?’, mmm, well, I’m extremely passionate about my job, which tends to make sure that I talk a lot. And so I can tend to go off a little bit and care too much, and I get too involved with my clients. But then, I guess that’s also my strength because I am so passionate, and because I care, my my clients tend to love me and trust me because they know that I’m always telling the truth and that I want to see the best for them. So I guess my weakness is my strength.JeffYou mean you don’t answer that question with, ‘I sometimes work too hard’?KarenNo. *[laughs]* Yeah, right. Yeah, the can generic one? No. Be honest. Take that weakness that you have that you know that is also something that you may also like about yourself, because everybody has something that they totally hate about themselves, but at the same time—like, I’m ADHD. At times, I hate that being ADHD. It’s the worst thing in the world. But at—but at the same time, my ADHD is what makes me so driven and be able to be so competitive and to do so well because it makes me so passionate. So that’s where we that mold—everyone. Every human being. The very thing that we often hate about ourselves is the also the very thing we can also learn to accept and love about ourselves, which makes us good at our job.JeffAnd—and talking with an employer, I thought you lay that out beautifully. You know, you take what you perceive as—as a weakness, describe it—you don’t ignore it—you describe it faintly and then pause and—and folks, remember, I believe that part of interviewing involves theater. You are an actor or actress on the stage presenting yourself in a way that the audience will sit on the edge of their seat, and wait for the next great moment to come out of your mouth. So, you know, you take that and with a little bit of theater, you talk about that perceived weakness, pause for a second and go, ‘And you know, if I think about it, that’s also my greatest strength because what I’ve been able to take out of that is…’ and then you talk about the good qualities that come with having that deficiency.KarenAnd you know what? Made a good point about something, too, about the perceived weakness. Most of us always to run away in interviews from our weaknesses. We get scared of it. Well, trust me, the hiring manager is seeing it. It—and the more you run from it, the more it glares. In fact, just recently, I had a candidate that my hiring manager perceived as very passionate, and they wondered how this individual will fit in with this company. And I was able to demonstrate by using my own passion how that individual could do so well and how they could harness it to their good. And so just remember, your first—the person interviewing you is seeing your weaknesses, and the more you hide from it, the more glaring it becomes. So addressing it and making it a positive is to your benefit.JeffI agree with you wholeheartedly. I remember, uh, I’ve been part of an international men’s group for many years and, in order to be allowed to lead these retreat weekends around the world, we sit in front of a panel to evaluate us for suitability for doing this. And in 15 minutes—15 minutes—this seven-man panel is able to discern very clearly what a person’s strengths are, what they’re trying to hide from them, you know, really drill in on some of those points that we smell, we taste, we see uh in the person sitting opposite us. If, as Karen said, if you think you’re able to hide this from a skilled interviewer, you are absolutely mistaken. Better to just bring it out, turn it into a positive, and move on. Karen, this has been great. Thank you. How can folks reach you?KarenWell, they can also just go to hirecentrix.com, and that’s h-i-r-e-c-e-n-t-r-i-x.com, and you can find my information there. That’s a site that I always laugh and say we try to teach people how to sue an employer just as fast as we will teach the employer how not to be sued. What we try to do is to make sure that the employee is treated fairly and equally, and I always try to teach a company how to make sure they avoid being sued by treating their employees fairly and equally.JeffThank you. Folks, we’ll be back next time with more job search advice to help you find work more quickly. I’m Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter. I’ve got lots of content available for you on Job Search Radio, so come listen to more of our shows. But I also want to encourage you to come over to my website, which is thebiggamehunter.us. Go exploring; there’s lots of great content to help you with your job search. In addition, if you’re trying to hire someone, send me an email at jeffaltman@thebiggamehunter.us. I’d love to help you with…